No contact on printers.

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No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:25 pm

I was guaranteed my shipment by Matt saying it would go out December 9th. The next week it had not shipped but I was told it was ready to go and I'd be getting shipping information Monday the 19th. No shipping information, no printer, no contact despite repeatedly attempting to contact Matt via messages through Kickstarter. I have been nothing but pleasant but persistent, and still nothing, not even recognition of the fact I've tried to contact him. Has anyone other than Mooselake actually received a machine?
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:31 pm

I had the same issue and mat had told my on November 21st that my printer would ship by the 28th. On December 18th he notified me that my unit would ship out that week and I still have no conformation of the shipment.. I also contacted him several times since October and the only way I seem to get anything back is if I message him through the Thingybot website. As of today I am contacting him for a refund. I really didn't want to but I can't risk not having a unit to start prototyping for a couple more months.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:57 am

From what I understand the refund window is closed at this point. I want to be positive and support this guy, but it seems like we are getting a bit of a run around. With other options for printing like a Prusa in the same price point or a Monoprice for half as much, I am starting to regret this, and I really don't want to be in that position. I know things can take time and have setbacks, but if there is there needs to be transparency and not false guarantees. I have documented my attempts at contact, I would suggest others to do so as well.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:39 am

^Agreed^

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Mooselake on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:07 pm

Jeremy Proffitt posted in the Kickstarter comments that he'd received his printer back in November, but he hasn't posted since then.  Nobody else has said anything that I can find.

I PM'd Matt in another forum a few weeks back that I was going to be in Baltimore and wondering how close he was - while I didn't mention it I was thinking about stopping by and visiting.  He picked up that message but didn't reply.  Too late now, we're back home.

He hasn't been here since late November.   He's mentioned shipping and supplier problems, but that's no reason to go silent.  Hopefully nothing's happened to him.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:18 pm

If you have any other methods of contact, I think we should be trying them all at this point.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by albertzerok on Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:17 pm

I do think Moose and myself (Jeremy) are the only ones printers have been sent to. I'm pretty sure, unless Matt gets a large cash infusion, he will not be shipping any printers. My *educuated guess* at this point is he's short on cash and doesn't have the money to ship them and may not even have the self discipline to complete them.

Unfortunately, my printer is on the bench - the firmware has configuration problems that I'm hammering out right now, but I may end up selling it dirt cheap on ebay as I'm just tired of dealing with it. I had ordered a fully painted Orange printer, what I got was white with orange accents.

I feel a bit sorry for all of you, unfortunately, unless you are willing to start filing police reports, I'm pretty sure, they may never ship.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:12 pm

There will be legal action if nothing is done, $700 is not something I'm willing to just hand over. Not wanting to go down that road, but I've been doing my homework on it none the less. I was told my package was labeled and ready to ship, so if he's gone to the point of lying, that's something that can be legally built on. Hopefully this is not the case. Matt if you read this, intent is not to become legally embroiled, but you do need to contact people ASAP and get these printers out.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by albertzerok on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:44 pm

I will say two things-

First, mine missed the shipping deadline, but not by more than a month once I had the deadline from Matt.

Second, Matt has good intentions, I'm not saying he doesn't need help with follow through, but in his heart, I do think he's not only trying, but wanting to build a good machine.

I'm fixing my machine to have a capacitance probe full time, and am changing to Repieter firmware from Marlin. Matt has also released the STL models (parts) and the firmware for the printer to thingyverse, which is amazing on his part, and I even tipped him on Thingiverse for doing so.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:12 am

I backed Matt because in talking to him before backing, I too believed he had really good intentions.  It's great that he's released the items on Thingyverse, but you at least have a printer to try to tinker into something of use. And I would rather be told "having x issue, wanting to get it right" like he's done in the past, all well and good with that, even "I'm too broke to ship right now, trying to arrange something" would at least be somewhat understandable.  What's not is repeatedly and to multiple people saying the shipments are actually going out, giving dates even, and then not even responding to multiple attempts at contact.  All very civil, reasonable attempts at contact.  Where I work we have a rule of never giving a date promised unless we can hit that date, as people will only get more upset if you say something will happen and then it does not.  That's where I am, long over the point where printers were going to be shipped, having been directly promised shipping (I have screenshots and printouts of the messages) and now zero communication, hell at this point I'd take a "quit asking me it's coming" just to be acknowledged.  I want to be a supporter, I was very pumped when he announced a second Kickstarter would happen for a smaller printer.  But I have passed on some other printers, sold personal items to get the $$ to pay for the printer, and have been trying to get a business of my own that requires 3d printing going. We all have things, and I'm sure Matt is trying, but those of us with nothing in our hands are starting to feel screwed over.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Mooselake on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:35 pm

Jesshield wrote:Where I work we have a rule of never giving a date promised unless we can hit that date, as people will only get more upset if you say something will happen and then it does not ... have been trying to get a business of my own that requires 3d printing going. We all have things, and I'm sure Matt is trying, but those of us with nothing in our hands are starting to feel screwed over.

I'm also disappointed with Matt for going quiet.  This is his first successful KS project, and like way too many KS projects the creators underestimate the time and costs it takes to get a prototype into even small production.  I've known him through a Printrbot forum for several years and through several 3D printer designs, and he's shown some pretty amazing 3D printer repair and design skills (well, maybe not Nicholas Seward class, but still better than most).  This might be ageism, but he's only a 20 year old kid and he's not handling reporting problems very well.  Only he knows for sure what's going on and regretfully isn't sharing it.  I'm not sure what parts supplier issues means, but at one point he said he had all the parts and all the printers assembled, and only needed to sort out the shipping issues.  If he needs a cash infusion it may not be very large.

The TBD has always been either a white or black power coated metal frame with your choice of color for the printed parts.  All orange was never an option afaik.  Since my top and bottom pieces are orange (which I didn't expect), and powder coaters like to do colors in batches (with setup charges...), likely if you'd asked he could have put your frame in the orange batch.  To late now, but Rust-Oleum has a product to fix that.  Why do you want a probe full time?  It's really not necessary, nothing moves with this design so there's no need to do regular probing.  It's not a floppy Printrbot simple.

<soapbox>This is a Kickstarter project, not a slow delivery Amazon purchase.  You made a (crowd sourced is the buzzword) investment in a project in the hopes of receiving a printer as a reward, and accepted the risk of doing so.  It's like investing in a startup without receiving any equity.  It's rare for KS projects to hit their dates, and delays of years (Tiko) and failures (Buccaneer) are common for 3D printer projects.  Before thinking about legal action go back and read your Kickstarter agreement.</soapbox>  I've been burned on undelivered KS projects, but never pledge more than I can afford to lose.  My one big painful shafting was a non-KS QU-BD RPM preorder, finally received an incomplete box of parts (without the expensive milling spindle and cooling system among other things) that never worked, for around $2K.  They're still selling the One (and two and three) Up cheapie 3D printer but screwed a couple dozen pre-orderers on the RPM and other models.  F- on BBB, somehow they're still in business.

Yeah, I know I lucked out as backer #2 and received my printer.  #1 also received a printer after a couple tries (the first was destroyed in shipping) but I don't know who that is - it if's not Jeremy then at least 3 have gone out.  It's well built, better than I expected.

Disclaimer:  yes, I'm a mod, but only because Matt asked me.  My interest is mostly in managing spam, starting back in the naive days around '96 or so when I ran a regional ISP and all email servers were supposed to be open relays.   Some <expletive deleted> *hole used us to blast out a half million fat burning email spams, killing the mail server, and I've been playing whack-a-rat with them since and do so for several other forums.   I don't have any special insight or relationship with Matt, nor do I know what's going on.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:47 pm

Mooselake wrote:This is a Kickstarter project, not a slow delivery Amazon purchase.  You made a (crowd sourced is the buzzword) investment in a project in the hopes of receiving a printer as a reward, and accepted the risk of doing so.

Now I understand that, from the perspective of a Kickstarter backer, but I purchased my unit through his website on pre-order. My unit is supposed to be what is referred to by the website as a "Retail Model." I was not investing in a risky KS project, but a business with a commercial front with the guarantee of receiving a product in return for my money. I continue to be patient but as a consumer, i have the right to expect a product in return for the money I paid, or a timely refund if he, as a business owner, is unable to deliver the product i have a receipt for. As I've told Matt, I truly want to support new business and a competitive market, I am also starting a business, but you should not be lying to your customer because your afraid of letting others down. I'm sure that its not reaching to say that we would all be content with honesty and transparency. I would enjoy weekly updates, even if it is just a "I have X problem and X problem still isn't solved, check back next week."

If he is unable to deliver the product, he should not still have his website setup to receive payment for more units. I feel for any individual who might attempt to purchase without knowing whats really going on. If he needs cash, I would gladly give something to a Gofundme page to get the ball rolling, but only in return for true transparency as to what is going on.


Last edited by I_Punch_Cats on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:52 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Wrong quote positin)

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Mooselake on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:18 pm

IANAL, but it sounds like you're right.  The preorder page, says delivery in December, not after the Kickstarter completes.  He needs to close that down until he really can deliver.

I'm willing to chip in a few bucks.  My youngest is an entrepreneur, CEO of a medical devices startup, and we're used to the problem.  In her case it's taken a couple years to get to a smallish paycheck despite the big title and raising a whole lot more (investors, not KS backers) than Matt did.  "Dad, can I talk to Mom" usually means what you expect.  Guess she doesn't like the comments about the fully paid for ChE degree...

However, this isn't Mom and Dad; those updates still need to happen.  Wonder if he actually knows what TL;DR means, it isn't the way to start off an update.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:19 pm

As a frequent Kickstarter backer, I am well aware of my funds being an investment. And if the project was merely delayed, i would have never complained, I am still waiting on my Cole-bar hammer and that's been three years, but the creator still updates. However, in talking to my friends wife, who is a lawyer, the fact that I was given a written guarantee of shipment by Matt, that I can prove, changes the rules.  It's no longer a failed project, it's a broken written agreement that can easily be proven. Copy of message from Nov. 28th.
" Hey Jesse,
First let me start out by saying your printer will 100% be shipped within the next two weeks.
A little issue put us back once again with shipping. The guys we were working with to cut down on shipping prices kept making mistakes with the orders so we ended up looking for another place and have just resumed shipping.
I wanted to do the rewards in order but it became apparent that that was going to be impossible, so certain backers printers are going out in a different order from when they were received. Your printer is guaranteed to ship by December 9th. I hope that works for you. Like I said certain printers are going out before others, so you ended up a little luckier than others by having it come a bit earlier.
Thank you
Matt"
If it had been a project delay, or an honest transparent mistake / setback, that's one thing.  Lying then going dark, another.  I hate hate hate being negative, and I hate even having to consider this because I believe in supporting peoples dreams. But I also really don't like being lied to. There was another message indicating he was checking on it, and another saying it was labeled and ready to ship.  So far I've only made a general inquiry with her(friends lawyer wife), but I have been documenting all attempts at contact.  I really really hope he gives some response soon and all of this negative thought can end.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:53 pm

Federal Trade Commission: Refund Rights of Consumers <<Hyperlink

Third Section on the page: Your Rights When Shopping by Phone, Mail or Online

It outlines rights of individuals making online purchases. The law might be a little hazy for Kickstarter projects but you might be able to work some mojo with your credit card company or bank. I have notified Matt that I will be canceling my order, I did order it through his store though. By the FTC laws he is required to issue a full refund, based on that every time a delay arises you have the right to withdraw your order, within 7 business days.

Good luck everyone, I feel bad that it's reached this point but he still has the chance to issue the refund before the bank gets involved.

-Jim

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:24 am

Jim - can you let us know if you get any contact on this? I am not getting any responses, despite keeping my attempts at contact professional and courteous.
Thanks
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:46 am

Jesshield - I will be make sure to post in here if I hear anything from Matt. I do hope he does contact me. I found out, in the last few days, that once I file the complaint to my credit card company that it is up to their discretion if they want to continue providing service to his company. If they view him as someone who just took the money and ran then he may not be able to process payments anymore. This is not my hope, my hope is that he gets back to everyone and achieves the goals of his business. As a customer and not a backer, I can't in good faith continue working with a company that was this unprepared for the challenges of delivering a product. I hope in the future to do business with Matt but will need to see some real change on the front of his business acumen.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:44 pm

Has anyone in any method been able to even get contact with Matt? I sent a polite Facebook to the profile he linked in Kickstarter a while back, and didn't see response or that it was read. How far do we go in trying to contact him? Any responses on the other forums Mooselake?
Wondering if he's a college kid on break or traveling at this point, I would think he would give someone some kind of response, even if it's negative. My being rather upset is tempered with actually being concerned for this guy, but I have no idea how to find out more.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Mooselake on Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:10 pm

Matt's college age (20ish) but afaik he's self employed and not a student.  He looked at the other forum about a month ago, around the time he went silent.

I'm also getting worried about him.  Googling Matt didn't find anything new.  Just in case I googled his sister (the distinctive name helps) and found both her home and work numbers, but haven't actually called.  If he doesn't resurface soon I'd like to contact her, just to find out if Matt's OK.  Don't plan to ask anything about the Thingybot, just his status.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by I_Punch_Cats on Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Please let us know if you do get a hold of him or his sister. I don't think that the printers are the concern, just making sure he's alright. Even if his sister just lets us know that he's ok, it's better then assuming the worst. If we know he's alright we can wait for contact from him.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by albertzerok on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:47 am

Here is Alissa's FB account, she is listed as one of the founders of the kick starter, so while she said to me, she is not involved, she was at one point which makes her liable as well for delivery. https://www.facebook.com/alissa.wahlers

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:48 am

Anyone that does reach out to someone other than Matt, make sure to make it a positive experience. In the end if Matt does come back around we want to be able to work with him on things, and it's never good to make someones family feel threatened.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Mooselake on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:39 pm

Allissa's never been part of this Kickstarter, as Matt has explained elsewhere.  She was part of his first KS a couple years back (I think Matt was under 18 then and legally a minor) and per Matt they won't let him change the account name.  She is definitely not involved and while IANAL I doubt she has any obligation.

If anybody does contact her the only relevant question is about how Matt's doing; has something happened or is he just avoiding us.  Perhaps I'm being overly concerned, my day job involves injuries, illness, and worse, but I'm a bit worried.

@albertzerok you're the only one who's spoken with her.  Think she'll be freaked out or upset if one of us gives her a call?  They call that a well being check in the EMS business.

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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:50 am

You're probably the safest one to contact or attempt Kirk. You've known him before the Kickstarter, are an admin for his forum, and you have your printer, so you're less likely to let any frustration influence your communication.  And you sound like a pretty level headed guy.  Let us know, and thanks.
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Re: No contact on printers.

Post by Jesshield on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:57 pm

Through Matt's Facebook I found his mother's page. I sent her this message, reposting here for complete openness on communication attempts.
"Hello. This is an odd message to send as I am a stranger, but understand the intent is %100 honest. I am one of Matt Wahlers Kickstater backers / Thingybot forum members. I found you through Matt's Facebook link on his campaign. No one has been able to contact Matt in over a month via many different methods. This message is to purely confirm that he is safe and okay, People are worried something might have happened to him as he was very active and communicative before mid - December. Thank you for your time."
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